並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E6%88%91%E8%A6%81%E8%81%BD%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B-%E4%BB%99%E4%BB%99%E7%8E%A9%E8%81%B2%E9%9F%B3-M2lGhHj6IS4/