並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep117-%E7%82%BA%E4%BB%80%E9%BA%BC%E6%88%91%E8%A6%81%E8%AE%93%E4%BD%A0-%E5%93%81%E6%A0%BC%E6%95%99%E8%82%B2-%E5%85%B1%E4%BA%AB%E8%88%87%E7%9B%B8%E4%BA%92%E5%B0%8A%E9%87%8D/id1525978220?i=1000554806838